Science - Religion.

[Gumballer]

well... this is (I think) the most debated subject in the history of man-kind. Why not ?

Please don't flame, don't start: yes!!! No!!! etc.. try to have a litle bit thought over arguements..

[oranges]

I would agree this is highly controversial.
although I believe in evolution rather than religion.

I just cant believe that a great man created everything (for everyone)
and then you have to be in one religion out of loads of different ones where only one is "right" the rest go to "hell"

don't be mad at me, pl0x :P

[Artic King]

Science.
Believing in God is the same thins als believe in Dwarves or Fairy's

[Gumballer]

^ wrong. Relgion is a world supported "theory" which is right at many surfaces, believing in fairies is a random believed which is based on nothing. And religion offers a lot of moral support and has a guide to lead your life properly and bring wonderfull cultures with them.

I believe in science, I have nothing against religion or what so ever, only against those people who are having 1000 children in a room, a cinema and push their Ideas of religion through their throat without giving them the chance of discovering theirself what they think is right/wrong.

The pope admitted the evolution theory and shouldn't be doubted by katholics. Their are 100000s pieces of proof that the evolution theory is correct.

[Artic King]

Nope, its the same.
Religion AND fairy-tales are based on nothing. None of them have any good arguments. And both of them have moral support.

[Gumballer]

Religion is accepted as a possible theory of existance, and religion explains everything through their vision. Religion is partly phylosophy and also states historical facts, while fairy-tales (its in the name) are tales which are written as fiction not as a vision of life and how everything has come to its existance. Religion is a guidline of life and isn't all lies, fairy-tales are completely fiction.

[Cirno]

Religion is just really really old science. People used their imagination to fill the voids in their knowledge.

[Artic King]

How its written, doesn't changed the matter of true it's contains..
And over how it's written; how is , for example, the bible writtin? And by how? Nobody nows.

(sorry for my english :'( )

[Gumballer]

the bible is written by the 4 apostles Marcus, Johannes, Lucas and Matheus..
The bible contains a lot of true facts, and most important, its a book that gives you a lifestyle. Reading the bible is like getting life-lessons (if you're christian). Reading a fairy tale is "enjoying" yourself. Fairytales are fiction, the bible has symbolic meanings.

[Cirno]

the bible is written by the 4 apostles Marcus, Johannes, Lucas and Matheus..
The bible contains a lot of true facts, and most important, its a book that gives you a lifestyle. Reading the bible is like getting life-lessons (if you're christian). Reading a fairy tale is "enjoying" yourself. Fairytales are fiction, the bible has symbolic meanings.[/b]

Alot of works of fiction contain true facts (most science fiction) and life-lessons (pretty much everything) and even symbolic meanings (Neon Genesis Evangelion :P).

[Gumballer]

yeah xD but they aren't compareable with the bible. The bible realy gives you a life(style) .

[.ncr.]

I would agree this is highly controversial.
although I believe in evolution rather than religion.

I just cant believe that a great man created everything (for everyone)
and then you have to be in one religion out of loads of different ones where only one is "right" the rest go to "hell"

don't be mad at me, pl0x :P[/b]
I love you, You took words out of my mouth.

Science > Religion

[Artic King]

And how are those people?
We even don't got the original texts!

And please, give me some of those 'facts'

[Gumballer]

it gives a lot of historical facts like the fact that jesus excisted and that he's crusified etc... their are many of those, but the most of it is symbolical. Those people excisted, realy. I wont look up proof etc... but they realy excisted. Bach even wrote a passion about Johannes and one about Matheus. The sources have been found, copied etc etc etc... and they are combined all 4 to the bible.

[Artic King]

It isnt proved that Jezus even exicsted. Same story with Mozes etc.

We don't who the writers of the Gospels are, and if they even exicst.

i shall PM you some articels about it. In Dutch.. (You speek dutch, don't you? Leuven-Belgium? )

[Gumballer]

yup I speak dutch xD

And, excuse me !!! I made a typo/mistake, I always mix those together: I ment evangelists, not apostles. Sorry for this stupidity

And it realy has been prooven since there were 1000s of sources where people (who had nothing to do with eachother) have written about him. If you're going to doubt that then you might as well doubt that Caesar existed..

[Thrasher]

Science.
Believing in God is the same thins als believe in Dwarves or Fairy's[/b]


Agreed the more i read about religions the more i am sure of it that there isn't a god and that it's all made up by people.

Especially now a days with all the technology that we have i can't take people serious that believe 100% in god. What i do support are the thoughts that the bible give you of having respect against each-other but apart from that i'm anti-religion :)

[ParaNoiA]

Science.

The whole thing about God and religion is just bullshit, theorys based upon nothing.
Give me some proofs plz. And not just edited pictures that shows God or Jesus or whatever.

Atheist for life!

[Cirno]

Science.

The whole thing about God and religion is just bullshit, theorys based upon nothing.
Give me some proofs plz. And not just edited pictures that shows God or Jesus or whatever.

Atheist for life![/b]

But you can't prove that god doesn't exist either. I'm agnostic btw. :)

[Mehhht]

I don't get this.... it's not science versus religion..... it's not one is true and one is false... I believe in evolution, I'd even accept the Big Bang Theory, and I believe God created it. Just because gravity or evolution or whatever exists doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

Science, in it's true form, is just a device mankind created to perceive reality. Yes, mankind created it, like mathematics.

I think it is impossible to 100% PROVE anything. Because you would have to prove that man's logic or perception of reality is THE correct way to perceive the truth. So even if God was logically disproved, you would still have to believe that man's logic is right. But for the sake of argument I'll assume it is correct.

And in response to the religion-fairy tale comparisons, you are being very hypocritical since you have no basis for that argument. Nobody knows who wrote the Bible? Did you base that off of the fact that you don't know who wrote the Bible? Sure, none of us were there when it was written, but we have found evidence that shows who and when it was written. That's like saying World War I never happened because we were not there when whoever wrote the History books did. To discredit the Bible on the basis of it's age would mean you would have to also discredit every other ancient text we have discovered.

(I probably didn't cover that very well, I'm no expert, but I have to go now...)

[Cirno]

I think it is impossible to 100% PROVE anything. Because you would have to prove that man's logic or perception of reality is THE correct way to perceive the truth. So even if God was logically disproved, you would still have to believe that man's logic is right. But for the sake of argument I'll assume it is correct.[/b]

How can logic be wrong? If it's wrong then it isn't logical. And isn't religion a part of mans perception of reality aswell?

[Roar]

i think this guy sums it up pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU

[Mehhht]

How can logic be wrong? If it's wrong then it isn't logical. And isn't religion a part of mans perception of reality aswell?[/b]

This is complicated, and very hard to explain so bear with me.

What I'm saying is a paradox, and I'm just doing it to say you have to believe something. You can't prove, 100%, anything. If you believe 2+2=4, you believe that you can successfully perceive reality by your senses and thoughts(and practically every other humans). It's VERY good evidence, but not proof. If you believe 2=2≠4, you believe logic is the incorrect way of perceiving reality.
I'm not trying to use this as a main argument, just as a basis, because I do believe logic works and 2+2=4... but even if you could logically prove there is no God (which no one has) it still relies on man's thoughts, which can be flawed.

It's kind of like people used to think the world was flat, and it seemed perfectly logical to them because no matter how far they walked it would be flat. Obviously, they had a lack of knowledge about spheres.

I just think it's possible that we could still, in spite of all our advances, have a big lack of knowledge and be wrong in interpreting our current situation.

But still, that is not an argument, I'm just trying to be open-minded.

Kind of like the discovery of soft tissues in dinosaur fossils, now although this doesn't prove the Earth is 6,000 years old like some creationists believe (which I don't), it shows that a lack of knowledge is possible and able to cause wrong conclusions. Dinosaur bones were believed to be 65,000,000 years old, and that was a logical conclusion based off the evidence, but now with new knowledge, there is a new conclusion.

Just my thoughts...

[Gumballer]

but even if you could logically prove there is no God (which no one has) it still relies on man's thoughts, which can be flawed.[/b]

It has been prooven logically multiple times but with every arguement science brings, they close their selves and just go like :"no!! no!! You're wrong" without bringing up arguements.

also, its not realy science vs religion, its religion vs science, religion wont accept a 1000 times prooven theory like ex. the evolution theory.

And about the not be able to proove anything, thats right, but if we care about that then we might aswell just kil our self becaus we can't be sure of our own existance. Its a paradox that you need to leave on its own actually.

[Thrasher]

But you can't prove that god doesn't exist either. I'm agnostic btw. :)[/b]

So everything you can't that it doesn't exist we just should believe that it does exist?

[Cirno]

This is complicated, and very hard to explain so bear with me.

What I'm saying is a paradox, and I'm just doing it to say you have to believe something. You can't prove, 100%, anything. If you believe 2+2=4, you believe that you can successfully perceive reality by your senses and thoughts(and practically every other humans). It's VERY good evidence, but not proof. If you believe 2=2≠4, you believe logic is the incorrect way of perceiving reality.
I'm not trying to use this as a main argument, just as a basis, because I do believe logic works and 2+2=4... but even if you could logically prove there is no God (which no one has) it still relies on man's thoughts, which can be flawed.

It's kind of like people used to think the world was flat, and it seemed perfectly logical to them because no matter how far they walked it would be flat. Obviously, they had a lack of knowledge about spheres.

I just think it's possible that we could still, in spite of all our advances, have a big lack of knowledge and be wrong in interpreting our current situation.

But still, that is not an argument, I'm just trying to be open-minded.

Kind of like the discovery of soft tissues in dinosaur fossils, now although this doesn't prove the Earth is 6,000 years old like some creationists believe (which I don't), it shows that a lack of knowledge is possible and able to cause wrong conclusions. Dinosaur bones were believed to be 65,000,000 years old, and that was a logical conclusion based off the evidence, but now with new knowledge, there is a new conclusion.

Just my thoughts...[/b]

I see. But there really isn't any reason to question mans logic yet.

So everything you can't that it doesn't exist we just should believe that it does exist?[/b]

I never said that we should believe in it. Just that we can't say for sure that it sn't exist either. As I already said, I'm agnostic, not christian.

[eatpooz]

Religious people are just confused.

Although my best friend is religious and goes to church every now and then, I struggle to respect heavily religious people, people that change the way they live to impress an imaginary man that lives in the sky. People that live by a book that makes little to no sense. I just can't respect that. Be your own person and don't let these money hungry churches brainwash you into living a certain way.

Just my 2 cents, get mad if you want I really don't care

[Artic King]

Thats what i say.
We don't have any prove that Dwarves etc excist. So write a book and begin the Dwarvisme!

Pastafarian 4 life btw!

[Gumballer]

We also don't have proof that humans excist . So why don't whipe out humanity ?

[Mehhht]

It has been prooven logically multiple times but with every arguement science brings, they close their selves and just go like :"no!! no!! You're wrong" without bringing up arguements.

also, its not realy science vs religion, its religion vs science, religion wont accept a 1000 times prooven theory like ex. the evolution theory.

And about the not be able to proove anything, thats right, but if we care about that then we might aswell just kil our self becaus we can't be sure of our own existance. Its a paradox that you need to leave on its own actually.[/b]

Okay, tell me one logical proof that God doesn't exist.

Or will you just say "Yes!! Yes!! I'm right" without bringing up arguments?

And like I said, it's NOT science vs religion!!!! I believe both! The Bible fits in perfectly with everything science says, just some Christians have interpreted the Bible differently.

I believe in evolution, even if some Christians don't, and I still believe in God.

The only basis you are using is the evidence that evolution is true, and that must disprove God, but it doesn't. God could have used evolution to create life. It never says in the Bible that God "poofed" humans into existence.

It's just like before, when Christians wanted to persecute whoever said the world was round, because they thought the Bible said it was flat. But in Isaiah it actually mentions the "roundness" of the world, and that book was written at a time far before it was studied.

[Cirno]

Okay, tell me one logical proof that God doesn't exist.

Or will you just say "Yes!! Yes!! I'm right" without bringing up arguments?

And like I said, it's NOT science vs religion!!!! I believe both! The Bible fits in perfectly with everything science says, just some Christians have interpreted the Bible differently.

I believe in evolution, even if some Christians don't, and I still believe in God.

The only basis you are using is the evidence that evolution is true, and that must disprove God, but it doesn't. God could have used evolution to create life. It never says in the Bible that God "poofed" humans into existence.

It's just like before, when Christians wanted to persecute whoever said the world was round, because they thought the Bible said it was flat. But in Isaiah it actually mentions the "roundness" of the world, and that book was written at a time far before it was studied.[/b]

I do believe the burden of proof is on the one making the claim (Christians... and any other religious people).

[Roar]

Okay, tell me one logical proof that God doesn't exist.

Or will you just say "Yes!! Yes!! I'm right" without bringing up arguments?

And like I said, it's NOT science vs religion!!!! I believe both! The Bible fits in perfectly with everything science says, just some Christians have interpreted the Bible differently.

I believe in evolution, even if some Christians don't, and I still believe in God.

The only basis you are using is the evidence that evolution is true, and that must disprove God, but it doesn't. God could have used evolution to create life. It never says in the Bible that God "poofed" humans into existence.

It's just like before, when Christians wanted to persecute whoever said the world was round, because they thought the Bible said it was flat. But in Isaiah it actually mentions the "roundness" of the world, and that book was written at a time far before it was studied.[/b]


is there any logical reasons for why GOD should exist?
if you watch the youtube links i posted earlier, i think the guy sums it up pretty good.

religion was created to control people and it just evolved into what it is today and there is no god (a invisible man in the sky that watched everything thing you do)

even though christianity says there is a god, what about all the other religions, is there a whole army of gods up there?

and if there is theyre doing a shitty job, just take a look around you.

and not to mention religion causes most of the suffering around the world.
what stared out as a way of living turned out to be used for war, killing and all sorts of stuff.

and religion got some of the biggest freaks of people.

if youve ever seen these guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mta3zdavM

if i saw just one of those people here id beat the crap out of em with the biggest bat i could find.

and well apparently when people die they go to heaven, well humans have been there, now where else could the dead be going then?

that again was created back in the old days, when people had no way to reach the sky, i mean they had to put in something to make people follow the rules. who doesnt want to go to heaven? sounds good right?

and the 10 comandments, again, is just some rules made to control people.
moses got them from god right? up on a mountain, where nooooone was around.

[Artic King]

We also don't have proof that humans excist . So why don't whipe out humanity ?[/b]

What are you then?

[Gumballer]

I'm a human. And I can't proove it, just like you can't proove that there isn't a god. The chances that I'm a human are 1000000 times larger tho. So its true, you can't proove anything, but like I said before, its useless to discuss that becaus it wont change anything. You can only give people proof as close to the truth as possible to try to convince someone else. My point is that you don't have to bring up the arguement that prooving someone is impossible becaus it will only block everything and then there will be no discussion possible, and thats not good. So lets close that part shall we?

[Artic King]

Thats because we don't now (sure) whát a human is. And why its different..
We know what a God is. (the bible) But we don't have any evidence for it.

We DO have evidence for ourselves. We feel ourselfs, we see other wich are the same as us, etc..

Thats because we don't now (sure) whát a human is. And why its different..
We know what a God is. (the bible) But we don't have any evidence for it.

We DO have evidence for ourselves. We feel ourselfs, we see other wich are the same as us, etc..

[Gumballer]

We know as good what a human is as what a god is. Give me the definition of a god and I'll give you the definition of a human.

Feeling, sencing, seeing can aswell be an illusion as believing. Its not becaus we feel ourselves that we actually excist, its not becaus we see eachother that we excist. You'll never know for SURE that a human excist, you'll never know anything sure. Becaus its just impossible to know something sure. Its only that the chances that we are humans are a lot bigger then the chances of there being a god. We don't have proof. We have feelings, experiences, thoughts etc etc etc... and all of those can be false just like our believes.

Why do you say that we have evidence for ourselves and not for a god? Thats realy wrong.

[Artic King]

Everything can be an illusion. But do we have any reasons to think that? No.

[Gumballer]

ofcource not, just like I said. But we also don't have a reason to think that humans can't be an illusion and god can.

[Mehhht]

is there any logical reasons for why GOD should exist?
if you watch the youtube links i posted earlier, i think the guy sums it up pretty good.

religion was created to control people and it just evolved into what it is today and there is no god (a invisible man in the sky that watched everything thing you do)

even though christianity says there is a god, what about all the other religions, is there a whole army of gods up there?

and if there is theyre doing a shitty job, just take a look around you.

and not to mention religion causes most of the suffering around the world.
what stared out as a way of living turned out to be used for war, killing and all sorts of stuff.

and religion got some of the biggest freaks of people.

if youve ever seen these guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Mta3zdavM

if i saw just one of those people here id beat the crap out of em with the biggest bat i could find.

and well apparently when people die they go to heaven, well humans have been there, now where else could the dead be going then?

that again was created back in the old days, when people had no way to reach the sky, i mean they had to put in something to make people follow the rules. who doesnt want to go to heaven? sounds good right?

and the 10 comandments, again, is just some rules made to control people.
moses got them from god right? up on a mountain, where nooooone was around.[/b]

I know what you're saying, and I've thought the exact same things myself.

The problem is Christians aren't all crazy. We differ in beliefs and traditions and how we act.
And I agree, if I saw those people I would want to beat them with a bat...

What you have to accept is religious people are bad. We are hypocrites and don't follow what we preach (I can't say EVERYONE but a lot). But Christians are human beings and can't be perfect.

But you can't condemn every religious person for the acts of some. Just because there are some people who think God hates America doesn't mean every Christian does.
It's like I can't say "because there are some non-religious homicide maniacs that means all non-religious people are too so they must be wrong"

But moving on, I don't think God is an "invisible man." I think He is the Creator and Designer of the Universe. I believe He created the world so it was perfect, with no suffering or evil. But He also did not want to create a puppet world, where everyone had to do what He said, and would no matter what. It is like the difference between making a puppet and having a child. Although you want the child to do what you want (for it's own good) it doesn't have to. So then mankind screwed up and sinned. That is when death and suffering entered the world (it wasn't created by God, though). The original punishment for sin was to be immediate death. But God had mercy and allowed them to live, but they lived "cursed" lives with death and suffering. But it was still waaaay better than the true punishment for sin.

So if there is a God, you can't ask "why is there so much evil?" You should be asking "Why is there so much good?"

And about all the other religions, I believe there is one God. But I can't say "there all going to hell" just because they are in a different religion. So what is He going to do with them? I don't know. But if he could save Christians from eternal punishment, I don't see why He couldn't save them.

And if religion was just made up by some people trying to control the world, why then, do isolated people, away from Christian influence, come up with a God, or some sort of religion. Human nature says that there is a God or some sort of Creator.

And the reason I believe Moses was alone on the mountain is the same reason that God doesn't show himself saying "Hey look I'm real, believe in Me!" It would take away humans free will, they would no longer have to have faith, they would just believe because they saw Him and they would always do whatever He said.


Oh and the reason I was talking about that "you can't prove anything" stuff is because I've found the most common objection I've heard is that "You can't prove there is a God so I'm not going to believe in Him"

[Artic King]

What kind of free wil was there when God murdered almost every humen on Earth?

[Mehhht]

Well seeing as He was being merciful even letting them live, He expected them to be better, but they were not. If you are given a second chance and you screw that up, why would you complain when you're not given a third?

[Gumballer]

@mehhht: @your last sentence:

you can't proove anything, but the chances that there is a god is a million times smaller then we're human. Nothing can be prooven you can only bring something as close as possible to proof. And I'll believe in god as soon as I accept a certain arguement as proof.

[Artic King]

At first; what if humans whant to be like that. It's there free will?
Second; God knew that they turn out like this! He's almighty!

[Cirno]

But moving on, I don't think God is an "invisible man." I think He is the Creator and Designer of the Universe. I believe He created the world so it was perfect, with no suffering or evil. But He also did not want to create a puppet world, where everyone had to do what He said, and would no matter what. It is like the difference between making a puppet and having a child. Although you want the child to do what you want (for it's own good) it doesn't have to. So then mankind screwed up and sinned. That is when death and suffering entered the world (it wasn't created by God, though).[/b]

OBJECTION!

God is omniscient. Therefore he/she/it knows absolutely everything of what will happen in the future as he knows everything about the present. When God created humans he/she/it knew everything what we were going to do.

[Mehhht]

@mehhht: @your last sentence:

you can't proove anything, but the chances that there is a god is a million times smaller then we're human. Nothing can be prooven you can only bring something as close as possible to proof. And I'll believe in god as soon as I accept a certain arguement as proof.[/b]

Okay, so prooving we're human disproves that there is a God? There is more evidence we came from a God than we came from nothing. (there

OBJECTION!

God is omniscient. Therefore he/she/it knows absolutely everything of what will happen in the future as he knows everything about the present. When God created humans he/she/it knew everything what we were going to do.[/b]

Yeah this is a part I don't quite fully understand either. But I don't think we're supposed to understand everything so it's okay with me (but I doubt that's okay with you).

But I'll give you my thoughts.

I think God created the world with a set destination. He wanted to create humans that could spend eternity with Him. But like I said, he didn't want puppets. But He still wanted everything to be good in the end. So how could we have free will? I think that although God knew what we were going to do, he did not predetermine it. He isn't controlling us and choosing what we will do. But in the end, He is still going to defeat evil, and He will do it either with us, or in spite of us. We choose to join Him or fight Him. I'm sure He would want us to join Him, but obviously, there are many who do not want that.

Hard to explain once again, but I hope you can kinda see what I'm getting at...

[Gumballer]

don't pull words out of context. I never said that prooving that we are humans is disproving that there's a god. I said that the "you can't proove anything" arguement is completely irrelevant to use in this topic becaus it goes with everything and its not about what to proove 100 % its about bringing something so close to proof that its taken as proof. There's not more proof that there's a god then that we came from nothing becaus there is no proof. There IS more proof about evolution etc... then that we came from a god, therefor I choose to be an atheïst not becaus nothing is proovable. Becaus then I would kill myself becaus of doubting my own excistance.

[Mehhht]

There is more proof that we came from nothing (or nobody to phrase it better) than proof that we came from a designer?

I don't think so. There is not a single piece of evidence that says we came from nobody or nothing.

And like I said before evolution and the big bang do NOT disprove a creator. A creator could have used them. I believe in evolution. Even the big bang. And I still believe every word of the Bible. The reason there is so much controversy from religious people concerning those two topics is because of their interpretation of the Bible. So why would God allow people to believe everything was created in 6 actual days? Because it is irrelevant. It doesn't matter exactly how we were created, if it did, He would have told us. It just matters that we are living.

[Gumballer]

Indeed, there's no single piece of evidence that we came from nothing just like there's no single piece of evidence that we have been "created". So its wrong to say that there's more evidence about the one thing then the other.

No, thats impossible have you even red the bible ? It says e.g. that the earth is 6000 years old wich completely disagrees with the evolution theory and the bigbang-theory. It says 1000 sort of things that completely disagree with the both theories.

"God" if he excisted didn't used both of those prooven theories becaus the bible completely disagrees with it.

[Mehhht]

Indeed, there's no single piece of evidence that we came from nothing just like there's no single piece of evidence that we have been "created". So its wrong to say that there's more evidence about the one thing then the other.

No, thats impossible have you even red the bible ? It says e.g. that the earth is 6000 years old wich completely disagrees with the evolution theory and the bigbang-theory. It says 1000 sort of things that completely disagree with the both theories.

"God" if he excisted didn't used both of those prooven theories becaus the bible completely disagrees with it.[/b]

Like I said, it depends on your interpretation of the Bible. You can believe that the "days" which God created the universe were six 24 hour periods of time, or millions of years. I actually think the Bible supports the millions of years, because in Revelation, it says there will be an earthquake so severe that "No earthquake like it has ever occurred since the human race has been on earth." That implies that there were earthquakes before humans were on Earth. It's unlikely that there would be a lot of earthquakes in five 24 hour periods.The reason you believe the Bible specifically says the Earth is 6000 years old is because some Christians believe that, and that's what people trying to discredit the Intelligent Design theory latch on to. I know many Christians who believe evolution and the Big Bang. Do you read the Bible a lot? If not, I don't know why you would state that there are thousands of things in the Bible that contradict evolution. If you want proof, read the Bible yourself.


But let's assume that I'm not a Christian, or Muslim, or whatever, just a believer of God.

You said "I'll believe in god as soon as I accept a certain arguement as proof."
But you openly believe that there is no God without a certain argument as proof. Sounds fallacious to me.

There is evidence that there is a God. There is no evidence that there is no God.

Some evidence that there is a God:

1. Human nature.
2. Every effect has a cause.
3. Morals

And science is no evidence that there is no God. It might be evidence against some beliefs of religious people, but it is no evidence against the existence of God.

If you are an atheist, you might claim: there is no God
But to claim that you would have to be omnipresent (because you would have to be everywhere all the time to make sure there is no God) and therefore contradict yourself because you would be God.
So really atheists must believe there is no God. I think it's odd how atheists demand proof of God when there is no proof that there is no God.

So it's your decision. If you want the best probabilities of a good outcome, I would suggest you believe in (a) God.

Think about it. If you believe in God (let's say the God of Christianity) after you die you will

1. Be right and live eternally in heaven.
2. Be wrong and a different God exists (let's say Allah) and you go to Muslim hell (I'm not really sure what that is...)
3. Be wrong and there is no God and nothing happens after you die.

But if you don't believe in God after you die you will

1. Be right that there is no God and nothing happens (but at least you weren't told what to do your whole life)
2. Be wrong and there is a God and you are punished for not believing in them.

You can either choose to hope that there is no God and you didn't waste your time on Earth and you are wiped out from existence and nothing happens or matters to you any more (which is a sad thing to hope for, I must admit) or you can hope that God does exist and you are able to go to heaven.

At least, that is my reasoning.

[Artic King]

1. Human nature.
2. Every effect has a cause.
3. Morals[/b]

excuse me agian for my english.

Al these ''arguments'' doesn't prove the God of the BIBLE excist. They are aply (?) to A God or a divinity.
Fill in ''The Flying Spaghetti Monster'' and you get the same.

Oright; Human Nature. Not sure what you meant with this, but you mean: Why we are evil? And killing other people? hhmm, yes, maby we learned it from God!

Every effect has a cause; you mean: Abiogenese?

Morals; thats because we are a Social Animal. When we stick together we have a bigger chance of survival.

[Gumballer]

Like I said, it depends on your interpretation of the Bible. You can believe that the "days" which God created the universe were six 24 hour periods of time, or millions of years. I actually think the Bible supports the millions of years, because in Revelation, it says there will be an earthquake so severe that "No earthquake like it has ever occurred since the human race has been on earth." That implies that there were earthquakes before humans were on Earth. It's unlikely that there would be a lot of earthquakes in five 24 hour periods.The reason you believe the Bible specifically says the Earth is 6000 years old is because some Christians believe that, and that's what people trying to discredit the Intelligent Design theory latch on to. I know many Christians who believe evolution and the Big Bang. Do you read the Bible a lot? If not, I don't know why you would state that there are thousands of things in the Bible that contradict evolution. If you want proof, read the Bible yourself.
But let's assume that I'm not a Christian, or Muslim, or whatever, just a believer of God.

You said "I'll believe in god as soon as I accept a certain arguement as proof."
But you openly believe that there is no God without a certain argument as proof. Sounds fallacious to me.

There is evidence that there is a God. There is no evidence that there is no God.

Some evidence that there is a God:

1. Human nature.
2. Every effect has a cause.
3. Morals

And science is no evidence that there is no God. It might be evidence against some beliefs of religious people, but it is no evidence against the existence of God.

If you are an atheist, you might claim: there is no God
But to claim that you would have to be omnipresent (because you would have to be everywhere all the time to make sure there is no God) and therefore contradict yourself because you would be God.
So really atheists must believe there is no God. I think it's odd how atheists demand proof of God when there is no proof that there is no God.

So it's your decision. If you want the best probabilities of a good outcome, I would suggest you believe in (a) God.

Think about it. If you believe in God (let's say the God of Christianity) after you die you will

1. Be right and live eternally in heaven.
2. Be wrong and a different God exists (let's say Allah) and you go to Muslim hell (I'm not really sure what that is...)
3. Be wrong and there is no God and nothing happens after you die.

But if you don't believe in God after you die you will

1. Be right that there is no God and nothing happens (but at least you weren't told what to do your whole life)
2. Be wrong and there is a God and you are punished for not believing in them.

You can either choose to hope that there is no God and you didn't waste your time on Earth and you are wiped out from existence and nothing happens or matters to you any more (which is a sad thing to hope for, I must admit) or you can hope that God does exist and you are able to go to heaven.

At least, that is my reasoning.[/b]

" Its unlikely that there would be another earthquake in five 24 houers periods "

Isn't it also unlikely that an old guy with his family singlehanded builded an ark collectected 2 animals from every speecies except the fishes, and made it flote on an earth that has been underwater for X days ?
Isn't it also unlikely that there's a guy swallowed (saved) by a whale, and protected in his tummy and brought back to land ?
Isn't it also unlikely ...
Isn't it also unlikely etc... etc....... etc...............


The composers of the bible didn't have an openminded interpretation. Everything in the bible was written literaly. I respect the christians who look for symbolic means etc.. etc.. besides they're way more logical but then you're just having an "invented" sort of fate becaus the bible etc.. was never written to be taken by interpretation, like I think the calvinism ? Not sure.
Btw, if you interpretate the bible freely then you should know that god is not a "man" but that he's a certain feeling of ethernal happiness.

You need to keep in mind that over 90% of the christians still take the bible literaly and believe every word of it.

Believe me there are a LOT of things that contradict the evolution theory and such:
e.g. the order in what sort of animals were "created" aren't correct with the right prooven order in which animals evolved etc... and excisted out of water and what not.
I can give you a lot but therefor I'd need the bible with me, and it lays in my grammys house. I did read it though I even gave a lecture about it in my school for my end-project(exam).

The things you named aren't evidence, that are things that MAY have been in a 0.0001% chance been created by a god.

1. Human nature is pure biology and psychology
2. Pure physics.
3. Morals is psychology again.

What do any of these have to do with god when they're just normal in LIFE ?
There's a lot of evidence that there can't be a god e.g. the 2 theories, big bang and evolution... both are prooven with facts, researc, labaratories etc... etc...

the next thing: ofcource you have more chance of landing well if you die. Thats logicaly but I don't want to live whole my life in a lie. I want the truth I don't want chances to go to a certain place of happiness etc...

I'll believe in a god when there are FACTS, touchable evidence, calculations etc... that there's a god. Elseway the chances are way, WAY to low that there's a god.

[Mehhht]

Okay, I still understand what you are saying, but you don't understand (some of) what I'm saying.

I never said the verse on earthquakes proved that the Bible says it's millions of years. It just supports it, it depends on the interpretation. And I wouldn't expect you to understand that Christians interpret the Bible differently, all the time (seeing as you are not Christian). I hear all the time that people read a verse, and it impacts their lives in ways I could not imagine. And since when do Christian's interpretations represent the actual true Word of God? And Christians don't believe the Bible is the authors words, we believe it's God's Word. Even if the writers of the Bible wrote it to be taken literally (and how you know this I don't understand) it wouldn't mean that was God's intention.

And Christians debate all the time on whether God used evolution.
This website explains it pretty well...

http://www.answersincreation.org/old.htm

I'm not sure what you mean by "order" of creation, I'm pretty sure it said God created the fish first then land animals and man. That's what evolutionists believe.

Okay moving on...

And for the evidence of God, I didn't really explain it that well, but I was focusing more on the fact that there is not a single piece of evidence that there is no God. I'm not talking about agnostics here, I'm talking to atheists.

If an atheist can give me one piece of evidence that God doesn't exist, please do. And (in response to Artic King) I said that I was talking from the standpoint of a believer of God, not any religious denomination. Yes you could fill it in with the flying spaghetti monster, but it is still a god. Like I said I'm arguing versus atheists who believe there is no God(s).

And for human nature, I'm talking about the fact that every civilization, no matter how isolated, has explained their existence by a "creator(s)." That is evidence.
And for every effect has a cause, I think the universe is an effect from the great "cause" (namely, God(s)). That is logical evidence.
And for morals, you can attribute it to evolution, but you can also attribute it to God(s). You cannot, however, attribute it to the "non-existence of God(s)"

You may find the evidence weak, but it is still, nonetheless, evidence.

So there is evidence of a God, and no evidence that there is no God. Which is more logical to believe?

I'm not saying it is evidence of Christianity's God, or any other religions', just that there is a God(s).


And you said "I'll believe in a god when there are FACTS, touchable evidence, calculations etc... that there's a god."

You decide to believe in the non-existence of God without any of those. I'll ask again... why?

[Gumballer]

Okay, I still understand what you are saying, but you don't understand (some of) what I'm saying.

I never said the verse on earthquakes proved that the Bible says it's millions of years. It just supports it, it depends on the interpretation. And I wouldn't expect you to understand that Christians interpret the Bible differently, all the time (seeing as you are not Christian). I hear all the time that people read a verse, and it impacts their lives in ways I could not imagine. And since when do Christian's interpretations represent the actual true Word of God? And Christians don't believe the Bible is the authors words, we believe it's God's Word. Even if the writers of the Bible wrote it to be taken literally (and how you know this I don't understand) it wouldn't mean that was God's intention.

And Christians debate all the time on whether God used evolution.
This website explains it pretty well...

http://www.answersincreation.org/old.htm

I'm not sure what you mean by "order" of creation, I'm pretty sure it said God created the fish first then land animals and man. That's what evolutionists believe.

Okay moving on...

And for the evidence of God, I didn't really explain it that well, but I was focusing more on the fact that there is not a single piece of evidence that there is no God. I'm not talking about agnostics here, I'm talking to atheists.

If an atheist can give me one piece of evidence that God doesn't exist, please do. And (in response to Artic King) I said that I was talking from the standpoint of a believer of God, not any religious denomination. Yes you could fill it in with the flying spaghetti monster, but it is still a god. Like I said I'm arguing versus atheists who believe there is no God(s).

And for human nature, I'm talking about the fact that every civilization, no matter how isolated, has explained their existence by a "creator(s)." That is evidence.
And for every effect has a cause, I think the universe is an effect from the great "cause" (namely, God(s)). That is logical evidence.
And for morals, you can attribute it to evolution, but you can also attribute it to God(s). You cannot, however, attribute it to the "non-existence of God(s)"

You may find the evidence weak, but it is still, nonetheless, evidence.

So there is evidence of a God, and no evidence that there is no God. Which is more logical to believe?

I'm not saying it is evidence of Christianity's God, or any other religions', just that there is a God(s).
And you said "I'll believe in a god when there are FACTS, touchable evidence, calculations etc... that there's a god."

You decide to believe in the non-existence of God without any of those. I'll ask again... why?[/b]

Ofcource christians interpret the bible differently. Just like everyone reads a book differently but there's only one interpretation thats the right one, the one of the author. Since the author wrote the word of jezus that was written in the Q-source, and since its still called CHRISTianity.. you'd better believe his word.

No I thought the order wasn't right. But like I said before I don't have the bible with me atm so I'm not sure but realy there's a lot of things that contradict eachother..

no, not realy, its not even weak evidence, its no evidence becaus its not prooven, those things point on it that there COULD have been a creator not that there is one.

the explaining of existence is normal human psychology to find the most - with their own life associating - explanation. It doesn't mean that there's a god it means that that is how the human mind work.

the greate "cause" like you call it doesn't have to be by a creator most likely just normal physics. Like I said..

I never attributed it to the non-existence of god. I told it doesn't HAS to be by god and that the chances are actually a million to one.

If it was actual evidence then everyone would believe in a god, its realy not that simple.


Then I'll answer again ;) If there's no proof of a god then the chances are way to small that there is one and way to big that I'm going to live my life in a lie. And I'd rather kill myself then.

[superiorgamer]

oly crap... yea sorry peoples I don't have time to read all theses posts but looks like some intresting discussion is going on. Just make sure you keep it at that level lol. I'll post my 2cents and maybe you might have time to read it. I'll have to take a few more looks at this thread.

Alright, to get started...
Religion is most easly defined as a set of explanations based upon a decision made by faith.

Some use the most current secular idea to define them such as the common person believes in evolution and they base there whole life around the belief that they are an accident. However, that decision is based upon faith because science is anything but reliable for science can not be proven %100 and is eventually disproved overtime.

Religion on the other had is yet a another series of beliefs based up faith. The decision they make however is to believe that there is a God and that is how everything is created and they orient there life around that faith based decision as do evolutionists.


Honestly, myself I believe a God and I believe it is both a more rational and scientific conclusion then evolution. Evolution is just this century's latest fad for how we came into existence and in my opinion, is a very lacking theory. Lack of fossil record, the myth of benifical mutations, symbolism, irreducible complexity ..ect give my good reason to doubt the theory. A good ole debate for a different thread I think though.. In addition, science can't even begin to explain origin of matter or how the first organic organism came into existence..ect. Life in general is simply far to complex to be the result of an accident. If you don't believe in miracles, look at yourself in the mirror cause there isn't a number in math that could describe the probability of you originated by random chance.

[Gumballer]

oly crap... yea sorry peoples I don't have time to read all theses posts but looks like some intresting discussion is going on. Just make sure you keep it at that level lol. I'll post my 2cents and maybe you might have time to read it. I'll have to take a few more looks at this thread.

Alright, to get started...
Religion is most easly defined as a set of explanations based upon a decision made by faith.

Some use the most current secular idea to define them such as the common person believes in evolution and they base there whole life around the belief that they are an accident. However, that decision is based upon faith because science is anything but reliable for science can not be proven %100 and is eventually disproved overtime.

Religion on the other had is yet a another series of beliefs based up faith. The decision they make however is to believe that there is a God and that is how everything is created and they orient there life around that faith based decision as do evolutionists.
Honestly, myself I believe a God and I believe it is both a more rational and scientific conclusion then evolution. Evolution is just this century's latest fad for how we came into existence and in my opinion, is a very lacking theory. Lack of fossil record, the myth of benifical mutations, symbolism, irreducible complexity ..ect give my good reason to doubt the theory. A good ole debate for a different thread I think though.. In addition, science can't even begin to explain origin of matter or how the first organic organism came into existence..ect. Life in general is simply far to complex to be the result of an accident. If you don't believe in miracles, look at yourself in the mirror cause there isn't a number in math that could describe the probability of you originated by random chance.[/b]

Science isn't fait nor it is random or by chance. Science is based on verry well thought over evidence and proof thats touchable, calculated and what not. Science will never be prooven 100% becaus nothing can be prooven 100% it just brings everything so close to proof that i'll be taken as proof. And why would it be disprooven overtime ? Is 2+2=4 ever going to be disprooved? I don't think so tbh...

Evolution is NOT an accident. Evolution is even logical if you think about it. If a certain species will be whiped out if they don't change then its in their ghene to change so they'll not be whiped out.

Evolution is not a fad or a trend or whatever. Was the earht being a sphere also a fad then? Evolution is the most likely theory for existence. Lak of fossil record ?? There are like 1000s, millions of fossils, still not enough for you? The first organic organism is explained by the big-bang theory.
You can stay rambling on about things like that, also about god e.g. who created god then? How did he came there etc.. its pointless becaus there's only one answer on both sides, infinity. And infinity isn't a number its a therm like temperature, speed or whatever. Yes life is verry complex, we don't know 1/million of life. But if its even to complex for evolution then it certainly to complex for 1 man just creating everything.

It isn't chance, its logic and phyisics..

Why do you say science is random and by chance when its supported by touchable, unconspiratal evidence? I don't realy get it.. thx for the 2 cents tho, going straight to the candy salesman ;)

[superiorgamer]

Does that post really look like something made to refute evolution? =P I think not, you missed the whole point of it. However, the debate of evolution is a very fun and interesting debate. Since you seem so furious to defend it why don't you create a different thread where such a debate would belong and I would be happy to discuss the topic. ;)

The whole point is that both sides base there belief on something they can't prove so they shouldn't accuse one of being more illogical then the other. In essence and definition, using scientific modernism as a system of belief to explain everything is just as much as a religion as Christianity, budism,..ect since they all require a decision based upon faith. You used math as an example. Science attempts to use math to prove theorys..ect. Science isn't math. I fear you are rather out of context using something as such for an example.

[Gumballer]

ofcource I get your point but I'm not realy agreed to it thats all xD

Science has more proof then actual religion and isn't based on faith. And you say it the other way around..

yeah, you're right, not the best example but e.g then: will Fg=m.g ever change ?

[']

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet but as some of you might know psychedelic compounds have been on earth since square one, as long as the dinosaurs have been around. Now back in the day, there was no research or tests being done for plants, mushrooms, unlike today where we can have access to all this information by simply searching on the internet or visiting your local library, everything was still unknown.

Is it not possible that religion itself and all the mystical experiences like encountering a higher being (aka God, Yahweh, Allah) was not initiated due to a high dose of psychedelic substances? Remember, back in this era, you had little choice of what you ate if you were starving.

Honestly, how easy would it be to start a religion? back in the day everything was still new and fresh, ideas were still original so any idea that came to the mind was valid. Imagination is a strong tool.

How about the religion Wicca? This religion was formed in 1920's which was not too long ago and I'm sure people have its doubts of how 'real' it is due to the time it was created in BUT there are still FOLLOWERS, followers & believers are the main fundamental for any idea.

Don't get me wrong, if you believe in a religion, I have the same respect for you as I do for anyone that gives respect back to others, but I do think it's good to think for yourself and truly dig into your thoughts and think how religion was manifested.

Since everyone has different views of life, different opinons, different experiences, there will never be a religion that is better than the other, but 1 thing that all religions teach is to give love. I think religion is actually good for kids until they reach a certain age where THEY have to think for themselves and take THEIR own road. I was taught to be a Catholic until I turned 17 and questioned everything around me and walked my own path from there.

Also, there are these religious paintings that have "UFO's" in the sky...

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrzD0PfyPs

[Mehhht]

Okay, you're not really answering what I'm asking. Why do you believe that there is no God? Where is the evidence that there is no creator?

[']

Talking to me?

[Mehhht]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet but as some of you might know psychedelic compounds have been on earth since square one, as long as the dinosaurs have been around. Now back in the day, there was no research or tests being done for plants, mushrooms, unlike today where we can have access to all this information by simply searching on the internet or visiting your local library, everything was still unknown.

Is it not possible that religion itself and all the mystical experiences like encountering a higher being (aka God, Yahweh, Allah) was not initiated due to a high dose of psychedelic substances? Remember, back in this era, you had little choice of what you ate if you were starving.

Honestly, how easy would it be to start a religion? back in the day everything was still new and fresh, ideas were still original so any idea that came to the mind was valid. Imagination is a strong tool.

How about the religion Wicca? This religion was formed in 1920's which was not too long ago and I'm sure people have its doubts of how 'real' it is due to the time it was created in BUT there are still FOLLOWERS, followers & believers are the main fundamental for any idea.

Don't get me wrong, if you believe in a religion, I have the same respect for you as I do for anyone that gives respect back to others, but I do think it's good to think for yourself and truly dig into your thoughts and think how religion was manifested.

Since everyone has different views of life, different opinons, different experiences, there will never be a religion that is better than the other, but 1 thing that all religions teach is to give love. I think religion is actually good for kids until they reach a certain age where THEY have to think for themselves and take THEIR own road. I was taught to be a Catholic until I turned 17 and questioned everything around me and walked my own path from there.

Also, there are these religious paintings that have "UFO's" in the sky...

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrzD0PfyPs[/b]

That is a possibility.

Maybe some religions were a result of someone taking shrooms and believing they know everything. Heck, I'd even believe that, seeing how some religions are (IMO) rather crazy. But you can't claim that [i]every[/] religion is wrong because of a few crazy ones...

EDIT: Haha no sorry I was talking to gumballer...

[Gumballer]

Okay, you're not really answering what I'm asking. Why do you believe that there is no God? Where is the evidence that there is no creator?[/b]

Where is the evidence that there's no flying spaghettimonster[/b] ? You don't believe in that I hope ... its not that something is true untill prooven elseway. Something is true as soon as it is prooven and not the other way around.

[Roar]

I know what you're saying, and I've thought the exact same things myself.

The problem is Christians aren't all crazy. We differ in beliefs and traditions and how we act.
And I agree, if I saw those people I would want to beat them with a bat...

What you have to accept is religious people are bad. We are hypocrites and don't follow what we preach (I can't say EVERYONE but a lot). But Christians are human beings and can't be perfect.

But you can't condemn every religious person for the acts of some. Just because there are some people who think God hates America doesn't mean every Christian does.
It's like I can't say "because there are some non-religious homicide maniacs that means all non-religious people are too so they must be wrong"

But moving on, I don't think God is an "invisible man." I think He is the Creator and Designer of the Universe. I believe He created the world so it was perfect, with no suffering or evil. But He also did not want to create a puppet world, where everyone had to do what He said, and would no matter what. It is like the difference between making a puppet and having a child. Although you want the child to do what you want (for it's own good) it doesn't have to. So then mankind screwed up and sinned. That is when death and suffering entered the world (it wasn't created by God, though). The original punishment for sin was to be immediate death. But God had mercy and allowed them to live, but they lived "cursed" lives with death and suffering. But it was still waaaay better than the true punishment for sin.

So if there is a God, you can't ask "why is there so much evil?" You should be asking "Why is there so much good?"

And about all the other religions, I believe there is one God. But I can't say "there all going to hell" just because they are in a different religion. So what is He going to do with them? I don't know. But if he could save Christians from eternal punishment, I don't see why He couldn't save them.

And if religion was just made up by some people trying to control the world, why then, do isolated people, away from Christian influence, come up with a God, or some sort of religion. Human nature says that there is a God or some sort of Creator.

And the reason I believe Moses was alone on the mountain is the same reason that God doesn't show himself saying "Hey look I'm real, believe in Me!" It would take away humans free will, they would no longer have to have faith, they would just believe because they saw Him and they would always do whatever He said.
Oh and the reason I was talking about that "you can't prove anything" stuff is because I've found the most common objection I've heard is that "You can't prove there is a God so I'm not going to believe in Him"[/b]

yea i was gonna add that not all religious people are insane, there are the people who just live by some of the rules and still believe.

im fine with that

but im shure there is no god.

And if religion was just made up by some people trying to control the world, why then, do isolated people, away from Christian influence, come up with a God, or some sort of religion. Human nature says that there is a God or some sort of Creator.[/b]


thats because humans have the need to believe in something bigger than themself.
take people back in the old days for example, like the jungle people, when they needed something they went and sacrificed or prayed to the gods. many times the sun.

i believe this is because if they had nothing to pray to, then what should they do? just sit there and wait?

NO that cannot be accepted, they need something to pray to and have something to hope will come down and save them from whatever is wrong.


and about the part where i said religion was created to controll people, yes it was als created to make money, and evolved into what it is today and people started worshipping.

i compare this with *think in a few thousand years, when our civilization got destroyed and someone dug our *book of laws* up form the ground and then started worshipping it*
thats what i believe religion is.

[Mehhht]

Where is the evidence that there's no ? You don't believe in that I hope ... its not that something is true untill prooven elseway. Something is true as soon as it is prooven and not the other way around.[/b]

Well you see, I can use the same argument then. I want to prove that there is no God. Does that mean, since it's not proven, that we should believe there is a God until proven otherwise?

And for the spaghetti monster, it is considered a "god" so you can believe in it. The reason I don't believe in it because I know it was created as a satire towards religion. Simple.

yea i was gonna add that not all religious people are insane, there are the people who just live by some of the rules and still believe.

im fine with that

but im shure there is no god.
thats because humans have the need to believe in something bigger than themself.
take people back in the old days for example, like the jungle people, when they needed something they went and sacrificed or prayed to the gods. many times the sun.

i believe this is because if they had nothing to pray to, then what should they do? just sit there and wait?

NO that cannot be accepted, they need something to pray to and have something to hope will come down and save them from whatever is wrong.
and about the part where i said religion was created to controll people, yes it was als created to make money, and evolved into what it is today and people started worshipping.

i compare this with *think in a few thousand years, when our civilization got destroyed and someone dug our *book of laws* up form the ground and then started worshipping it*
thats what i believe religion is.[/b]

I don't see why you believe religion came about in two different ways. Why would religion come about as a need to believe in something bigger than themselves (which is evidence for God) and as a way to control people?

And to claim that religion today is just means to control people and take their money would be, again, claiming that all religious people are either insane or stupid.

Do you honestly believe that people just give their money for free? Oh they hear some church say that there is a God so now we must give money!

We're not idiots.

Religion is a life changing thing, don't you think humans have enough intelligence to research what they believe at all?


Also can I ask you why you are sure there is no God? How do you know atheists aren't trying to control the world by getting people on their side? ;)

[Gumballer]

so what you're saying is that everything is right untill prooven wrong ? Thats just absurd.

[Roar]

Yea because Atheists have such a huge impact on the population...

unlike religion (suicide bombing, internal conflicts, crazy people)

and i dont see how you made my statement about the people having a need to believe in something bigger than themself and that it was created to control people 2 different things.
im pretty shure both of those statements clearly show that i say there is no god.


and offcourse im shure there is no god, use your damn head! have you ever seen any evidence for him existing? when you look out of the window, do you see god smiling down on you?
and where would he be? floating around in the air beeing invisible to the human eye?

its simply not possible for any invisible man to have created the entire universe along with everything on it. its all pure fiction made up.

i might aswell (as stated before) start believing in pixies, trolls and all cinds of stories.

[Mehhht]

Haha, you didn't seem to get my sarcasm. I was just trying to show how it's a ridiculous argument to say religion is wrong because people might be using it to gain control of people (of course I won't deny it hasn't been done before. But like I said, you can't throw everyone in the same boat because of some people, like suicide bombers...)

And I do believe it is impossible for any man to create the universe. Good thing I believe God is not a man.

But I'm taking logic into this argument. It isn't an argument just over proof or the lack thereof.

Think of it this way, if there was a possibility of going to heaven if you believed in fairies or dwarves or pixies, wouldn't you do it? (not that I think we just have to believe in God to go to heaven, but I'm just trying to argue versus atheists)

The reason why it's better to believe in God than not believe is because of the possible outcomes. But if you believe it's better to risk your soul just so you won't live in a lie (which wouldn't even matter in the end if there is no God) then I can't convince you.

And I said this before, if God was clearly visible and evident to everyone, all the time, that would take away from the free will God gave us, to choose to live for Him or to deny Him and live for yourself. If you could look out the window and see Him, wouldn't you follow Him because there's obviously no other choice?

I do use my head, thank you.

[Artic King]

What kind of free will was there when God murdered people?

[Kirarose]

People are easily swayed but overwhelming facts and numbers. We look for proof of
everything, faith is believing without proof. Each theory has its facts to support and
facts to disprove it. Like I said in another topic (similar to this one) Its reassuring to have solid
facts but we cannot always get these things. How are we to know what was exactly written in the first drafts of the bible or any other holy scriptures and I also agree that it is unfair to be pointed to one religion and be told that its the one and only truth and all others are works of the devil. I think every religion has its strong points and weak points. The only religious belief I do not agree with an totally loath truth be told is the one that states that certain people and cultures are evil and that in
reward for killing yourself along with as many of those ppl as you can you get a multitude of virgins ect. ect. Yes this may be a hot topic but ever since the creation of man we have disputed
who, what, where, when and why we came to be and I assume we always will.